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Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally. Scars of whipped slave, Baton Rouge Wikicommons.
I take on this subject with some trepidation. So, to prevent said tactics being aimed at your glamorous and legally shy blog queen, I shall limit myself to what has been written in a few sources.
In order to give our readers a quick synopsis of the issue, I start with a review from Wikipedia. However, as you will see in the other sources, this synopsis provides an accurate overview. The pamphlet stated that "slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the War or since.
Wood, Clayborne Carson, and Bancroft Prize winner Ira Berlin condemned the pamphlet's arguments, with Wood calling them as spurious as holocaust denial. Wilson held a February conference for those who supported his ideas, such as pastor George Grant, in the University of Idaho. The University published a disclaimer distancing itself from the event, and numerous anti-conference protests took place.
Wilson described critical attacks as 'abolitionist propaganda'. He also has repeatedly denied any racist leanings. Wilson has described his own views as 'paleo-Confederate'. He has said his "long war" is not on behalf of white supremacy; rather, Wilson seeks to revive the memory—however rose-tinted—of eras in Western history when faith and reason seemed at one, when family, church, and the organic "community of Christians" that T.
Eliot describes in Christianity and Culture were more powerful than the state. Canon Press ceased publication of Southern Slavery, As It Was when it became aware of serious citation errors in several passages authored by Wilkins. Robert McKenzie, the history professor who first noticed the citation problems, described the authors as being "sloppy" rather than "malevolent. Wilson decided to redo his work and republished it as Black and Tan. Once again I link to Wikipedia which has done a good job in consolidating a number of reports of the activities of the Aryan Nationin this part of the country.
Of course, Doug Wilson does not appear to have any ties to such groups. To say fire and brimstone rained down upon them is not too much of an exaggeration. One of the professors, William Ramsey wrote the following article: The Late Unpleasantness in Idaho: The following quotes are from this article. Previously friendly neighbors perfected outrageously inventive insults for one another and in some cases cut off communication altogether.
Wison believes that patriarchy and southern slavery are sanctioned by the Bible. Slavery resulted in mutual intimacy! Ramsey pointed out this quote from the Wilson book. So, the ensuing firestorm took the two professors by surprise. We underestimated the extent of their support base in northern Idaho and the ability of organizations such as the League of the South to refocus their efforts on Moscow and to mobilize activists.
Wilson apparently demanded both a public apology and disciplinary action on the part of the University. Dabney, but he had also scheduled as co-speakers white supremacist League of the South co-founder Steve Wilkins and the anti-gay Tennessee minister George Grant, notorious for advocating the extermination of all homosexuals i n his book Legislating Immorality. She adds more information. The following quotes are from that article. He prefers the label paleo-Confederate.
Instead, I would say we're fighting in a long war, and that [the Civil War] was one battle that we lost. When Wilson says that the mission of NSA is to "save civilization," this is his meaning. There are circumstances where I'd be in favor of execution for adultery.
All I'm doing is refusing to apologize for certain parts of the Bible. Wilson apparently believes if we give on slavery, we go down the slippery slope. Scholars challenged its claims that slavery in the South "was a relationship based upon mutual affection and confidence," and revealed that the booklet had been partially plagiarized.
In conclusion, this blogger is perplexed. One would think that wise theology gurus would distance themselves from Wilson. But, in fact, Wilson is becoming more mainstream.
I leave you with one video by John Piper who appears thrilled to have Wilson speaking at a conference of Desiring God.
Perhaps this will help our readers to see that there is a possibility that these deeply troubling views of Wilson are gaining purchase in the Neo Calvinist circles.
Why else is he being invited to all those conferences. This video was shot by Desiring God and is not a parody with the shaking, as far as I know. This is astonishing and horrible. What is most troubling is that many home schoolers who would NEVER agree with this crazy spin on slavery and the Civil War will buy materials from these people, go to home school workshops with them, etc.
So, besides Piper, he was endorsed by a now dead atheist. Face it, most of our apostasy from our Christian founding as a nation is caused by ……. He is a great proponent of toleration and love of other people, more so than many.
I love and respect Muff. Muff is trying to convey how many so called Christians in the South viewed the interference of what they considered liberal Jewish people from the north who involved themselves, often heroically, in the race relations in the South during the s.
I believe he was trying to use language that was used by sweet SBC people who sat in SBC churches and encouraged racial segregation. There were some Jewish people who actually lost their lives marching in the South. They were ridiculed by racists of all sorts. Muff was merely reminding us of this sad history. And nice SBC people used such language back in the s. So, with that in mind, reconsider his comment. Christians in the South had much to be ashamed of.
Slightly OT, but there is another story about Christ Church and Wilson that you need to take a look at. Knowing Muff, I believe he is saying that some Christians blame the Jewish people and liberals for screwing up the history. Jewish people played an admirable role in the civil rights movement, often putting themselves at risk when they travelled to the South to march.
Such yearnings for the past seem to occur in times of great anxiety, crisis or uncertainty. Here is the citation for the peer-reviewed article by Quinlan and Ramsey, in which they explain why the Douglas Wilson book is inaccurate.
Hard as it is to believe, he really said that homosexuals should be executed or exiled. I learned of Wilson and other theonomist over at oldlife. You should read how they argue over at oldlife.
Keep sounding the alarm! It is just a hard thing to discuss living where I live…. My ancestors certainly relished the intimacy of rape and torture at the hands of their harmonious white benefactors. Evidently he believes pedophiles who molest very small children should be put to death as well. Please look at the original comment again.
We tried to clarify it. Muff is a wonderful man who is the epitome of respect and love for people of all stripes, more so than most. I vouch for him. I know what he was doing and he meant well. Looking at his statements, I have my doubts. It is that mindset that continues to allow for human trafficking which is flourishing in ways unimaginable even 50 years ago. Have they ever confronted him? Piper seems to like him a whole bunch yet he write against racism.
There seems to be a bit of forked tongue here. It seems I have more to write on Doug Wilson. Where oh where are the Gospel Coalition boys who care so much about racial reconciliation.
Wilson views rape as the judgement of God on a people Fidelity: I was not going to post this since I have taken over your blog lol and also this is so disgusting to read. I guess this Jared Wilson is a fan. You know, Piper is proving to have very little discernment. Do you all realize Wilson was considered on the fringe of Christianity just a few years back? This young man had moved there to be a part of it- was disillusioned and was trying to get away with his family and he took Wilson on with a blog which evidently at the tiem was a huge deal to stand up to Wilson.
His name was Michael Metzler or something like that. It was a cross between Stepford Wives and All this to say, he is being mainstreamed. Like many of the fringe are. So what does that mean? I think we should all pay very close attention. What else will become acceptable?
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We can find NSA sex anywhere. At a bar, at the grocery store, at the bank. Doesn't matter how attractive we are, or are not. Women can get laid easily. So all the hookup sites are full of men. There are a few of them who get off on the anonymity of it, but not many. Came here to say just that. I'm a dude, but it took me all of about 5 minutes of looking at Craigslist and a few weeks of browsing Adult Friend Finder to realize that there are no women there. There's just no reason for them to resort to anonymous online sex.
You might come across some prostitutes, depending on where you live, but that's about it. If you could get used to the idea of getting blowjobs from guys, you can make out like a bandit on Craigslist. You can find a different guy to blow you every day of the week. The main problem is that all of these websites are paid, too.
I'm not going to shell out money to a website that's all bots. I know there are some women who actually want to just fuck but finding them is the problem. An old gay friend back home told me about this adventures on craigslist and on some gay meetup site.
He posted a cock pic and got dozens of replies from guys in the area looking to blow him or have him fuck them. If only us straight guys had it so easy: This is true, I have found this out the hard way. There is pretty much no such thing online, you might as well be looking for unicorns.
I am a reasonably attractive female and I used POF to find this. We don't all go out to bars every weekend. I'd say I'm a small percentage, but I'm sure I wasn't the only woman on the intimate encounters section at the time. Let me point out that one verse again: Not unusual in the court records of the Puritan era are cases in which wives brought their husbands before the magistrate for…er…failure to perform! Wilson knows this of course.
All of these fringe group leaders have become hot commodities in the Christian homeschool circle. But it was the same thing I was seeing when reading their books that took me a while to catch.
They have different definitions for Justicifaction in that they tend to subtly merge it with sanctification. This is why they call everything Gospel this and Gospel that. Justification is not a one time deal with them. And how can you grow in Holiness when you continue to be depraved and are stuck at the Cross? Listen to them closely and ask yourself, Who are they talking to and about?
Who was he talking TO and he never once mentions if the abuser is a professing believer or not. Is that a big deal? Yes, I think it is. If the abuser is a professing believer then the abuser has a huge problem and perhaps may not be saved. But Piper never once mentions that aspect. It is just about the woman and what she should take.
I noticed this all the time and it made no sense to me. Why would long time Christians be practicing sin? And it is the practicing part we need to heed as in 1 John and Hebrews It is a lack of teaching on what sanctification really is about.
Wilson is conveniently ignoring 1 Corin 7 which is clear and totally negates what Wilson is trying to make people believe. I have read some of the stuff about Wilson before.
I have no idea why anyone in the thinking Christian community would want to be aligned, even slightly, with a guy who is trying to re-write the history of the Confederacy or Slavery. It is mind blowing. Well, seeing as R. Rushdoony, the father of Reconstructionism, took pains in his book to try and downplay the Holocaust, who knows? And make no mistake, Rushdoony IS involved.
Another weird thing about Rushdoony is that he, too, is often called out as being racist. Clearly this IS a good thing. The only way this would be a problem is if one of the parties was an unbeliever, in which case the question of race would be a moot point. So neither Rushdoony nor his son have satisfactorily explained his comments.
Yes, clearly, if Wilson had listened to Paul, he would never have been able to claim that sex was non-egalitarian. Also, to whoever it was on here that said Doug Wilson was separate from Doug Phillips: I continue to search diligently for said connection.
I remained convinced that eventually, it will turn up and it will not be pretty. They are both too patriarchal, and have far too much money invested in Christian homeschooling for it not to be there. Boy, I just keep thinking of things to say.
This is a little off-topic, but does anyone here know anything about the details of the falling-out between R. Rushdoony and his son-in-law Gary North a fellow and extremely militant Reconstructionist?
He does address 1Cor 7: He just did not go into it in chapter 7. I just finished reading the entire book, even though I was advised by Wilson to not read it unless my husband specifically gave it to me to read. In the begining of the book he states it was written for men and their sons. I read it illegally. He addresses the verses in chapter 12 if anyone wishes to read it.
I posted the link to the online book above in one of my comments. He defines the authority each other has on the bottom of page but I am confused and beyond caring what he could possibly mean.
If the text of this video is correct, then 8, pastors were influenced by Doug Wilson, thanks to John Piper. Here are some of the presentations at the Desiring God Pastors Conference. We mentioned in the post that Piper invited him this year. Martin Romero, At the risk of boredom or taking us off the Wilson subject, here are my specifics from Packer and Piper: Apologies to those who read these earlier in the week.
Which is exactly what they do. Chapter 7 Thy Word is Truth: Here is God addressing human beings directly. Thus fellowship between God and them is inaugurated.
So what category does Packer leave out of Gen. Husbands, seek your joy in the joy of your wife by accepting the responsibility to lead as Christ led the church and gave Himself for her.
Notice anything odd about the scriptures quoted? This chapter has been greatly quoted and paraphrased by other authors and teachers in the following 29 years, so I think these omissions … significant. And then main theme of that book: A book about a gorgeous man called Christian, who wants total submission from his woman surely has a large audience just waiting to part with their cash….
If Southern slavery was so righteous, then it makes no sense why the abolitionist movement and the Underground Railroad sprung up. What makes it worse, in my eyes, is that there were people in the s who defended slavery and later, Jim Crow based on the Bible, and we still have people doing it. This hits awfully close to home to me.
Under Jim Crow aka Plessy v. Or would it have been American Indian? Who knows—but what I do know is that my ancestors a married across the racial lines and b went to extremes to cover up what they had done, including moving to different states. Getting back to Doug Wilson—I think the best way to approach this man would be to persistently offer to purchase him as a chattel slave whenever he shows up in public.
So if a woman named Grace died, she could have one shade ghost. So if she had multiple personality disorder 50 of them she could have 50 shades, hence, 50 Shades of Grace could be a very interesting ghost story.
BTW, think about that use of the word shade in the other book titles!!!!! And then about the number of people killed by the Puritans for example. You are totally right. Doug Wilson used to be on the fringe and thought of as eccentric and dictatorial. He is now being mainstreamed. We should all be alarmed and warn people as quickly as possible.
Another thing all of us need to know about Wilson is that he welcomed with open arms RC Sproul, Jr, to CREC after he was excommunicated from the Presbyterians for tax number fraud and falsely excommunicating people who would not obey him.
Having just read Half the Sky by Nicholas Kristof. I realized I was caught up in Americanized Christanity as opposed to being a christian. I just want to climb under the covers and not come out. I really admire all the very well written remarks that point out the evil of this view. I also want to address the homeschool stuff.
I used Veritas Press to teach my daughter from 4 all the way through highschool. We are not reformed and I skipped or discussed it with my daughter. We also attended on of their seminars on homeschooling. Thanks for the book tip. Have you seen his mansion and jet? We all have had our moments so welcome to the club. I read about Doug Wilson and I want to punch things. I read Jared C. I can assure you, we are learning together. I plan to feature some posts soon so we can all be aware of what I consider to be a dangerous trend.
Crossway has deals with Douglas Wilson and Jared C. Two things happened over the weekend that should catch our attention: These guys are working hard to get Wilson out there before DG. Also, he just did a presentation at a secular university on Christian sexuality. He received a lot of protest and practically a riot, mostly from the hard left, all objecting against things he never says. The video is worth watching over at:. Gary North wrote an 86 page book on what happened with Rushdoony.
It is still on the web, at his site. In fact, I read his book on worship and reformation and listened to his podcast for about a year and never heard him address those topics at all. But watch the videos at Bloomington if you get a chance, I thought it was outstanding for a variety of reasons, and it may help cut through the hype to his actual position on a few things.
Jeannette Altes I meant to refer to the post, not necessarily the comments. I do note that many of you are linking to his actual text. I was mostly referring to his position on slavery and racism. If Wilson does indeed say this will check links , then it is somewhat shocking that he is still in a pulpit anywhere, unless of course he made some public recantation and apology of which we are not aware.
The video is worth watching over at: I was reading Doug Wilson blog and mablog years back when blogging first started. He is anything but soft comp. He is patriarchal and bizarre. He was considered very fringe by most of Christendom until recently. The shunning, the spiritual covering, heirarchy, etc. It is a high brow version of a shepherding cult.
In fact, in certain spiritual abuse circles his views on slavery have been well known for years. This is not new. Doug Wilson loves the notority. Back when I read his blog a lot if he did not like something you said or thought you were disrespectful to him, he would demand the name of your pastor and phone number to have you disciplined.
Very few women dared to comment on his blog back then who disagreed. I appreciate your honesty. The post quotes Wilson then presents what the authors and others have to say about that pamphlet. It is indeed based on what Wilson actually wrote. The Kinist thing was a huge revelation to many in the blogging world back then. It was a shocker. I am making a prediction. More and more of the NC movement is moving toward reconstructionism. I am seeing the beginnings of it in subtle ways and I doubt I would have if I had not researched the movement back in and talked to a lot of people who came out of the movement.
Wilson intentionally distanced himself from the writing of his co-author with the former, which was the reason for the revision. But as my first link shows, this is not the case. He also apologizes not for the content of the previous publication but for failing to properly give credit to certain citations.
Thank you so much! Still, he does make some good points in here that would make sense whether one was Reconstructionist or not. North for exposing his father-in-law for the racist he was. How could a man Rushdoony whose parents escaped the Armenian genocide be so racist? The poisonous fruit of racism was right in his own family history — had he chosen to see it there. Be very careful about Wilson.
He is known for his ability to be a bit of chameleon and that is the game he played on the slavery stuff. Say it and then retreat. Well, sort or retreat. Where are the apologies for the horrible things he actually allowed said with his name on it. How about the guys he invited to the conference? And I will be getting into the lovely things he has aid on gender.
How well do you know his history? He has not distanced himself from these folks at all. However, he might be like CJ Mahaney. And so you will know, I am conservative, hold the comp position, attend an elder led church, and am very pleased with the changes at Southern Seminary. It is inexcusable for any professing Christian in to become in any way an apologist for slavery.
Even flirting with that topic, in my opinion, is an immediately disqualifies one from Christian leadership. If someone did that, they would, correctly, be marked as a kook and out of touch. I am glad for that — sort of. I am glad that he gets the Gospel right, but I hate that anyone who gets the Gospel right would get so wrong the natural implications of the Gospel. One can, I believe, extend grace to our ancestors of hundreds of years ago who may have held similar views.
We also once believed in the Divine Right of Kings and other things we no longer believe in. But these men are showing extremely poor judgment. If this continues, they will not build a movement, but a ghetto.
We are already sufficiently counter-cultural. Do we also need to start adopting more strange ideas — ideas that are not the Gospel, and are actually antithetical to the Gospel? Is this loyalty to Jesus or are we diluting and distorting the Gospel by attaching things that are inappropriate? We have one guy in our church who is, frankly, a nut. He comes from a wonderful family. His mother is dear.
His father was martyred on the mission field. But he is a nut. He has drunk deeply from the Wilson well, the Grant well and other places that cause him to believe some really strange things. He reminds me, at times, of the conservative Christian who shot the abortion doctor.
Thank you, Dee and Deb, for finally covering this in the way that you did. This information needs to be out there. I did some additional reading on this issue. How most were not mistreated as you have been taught. How the north were bigots as well. Can they seriously say that bigotry is biblical?
Is it biblical to view people of color as animals? I come from a southern family FULL of bigots, and my parents marched in the civil rights movement because it was just and the Christian thing to do. Yes, that is putting it nicely Thankfully, they felt led to do it anyway. Racism is till alive and well today sadly. They are ice skating in hell I never thought the day would come when I agree with someone who likes the changes in Southern Seminary!! You most likely will NOT see a culture warrior blog post on Mohler calling out Piper for promoting a kinist.
They just pretend it is not happening. What these guys will tell you is that they agree with this atheist stuff and ignore the other. And yes there is a place in Christendom for guilt by association when it comes from that stratosphere. It is a club. Piper is far too popular with SBTS students for them to really question him on his wisdom and discernment.
HUG, This is so true. I was talking with a friend of mine who does massive research into abuse of all kinds and we were discussing victimology.
They do not even realize how much they are subconsciously blaming the victim. Why not ask, what was the perp doing there and what made him think he could get away with it? Except for those who walk with Christ and those who have been victimized, most people really despise victims. And yes, it is fear whether they realize it or not.
There is a whole psychology attached to it that is unbelievable. People talk a good commpassion game and mostly say, I will pray for you, but rarely are they just in action or stand up to the ones who do it. Most make excuses not to confront the evil or deal with it. So when the abuse is spiritual it adds another dimension to it. The people you gave your trust to abused you. They make excuses for evil.
I know you have probably studied the psychology of the Holocaust but one would think after a while the death and destruction of humans would get to those involved. But their hearts grew harder and because very few Jews fought back, it made it worse for them. As the Jews always pass down their history most understand suffering. That is why we must stand up for those who have been spiritually abused and say to the bullies and their fellow travellors: We are going after you.
I love it there. Plus, with the weather, this is the best time to go. Lynchings promoted racial harmony? The ideological backbone for the civil rights movement was Communism? Funny, I thought we were just quoting other sources.
It appears that some perceptive readers chose to raise a few questions. I thought everyone had access to Google. Well, tune in tomorrow and we will give an update on this situation. Needless to say, we stand firm on what we have printed. Jared wants hits to his site. I say this not to defend his stance on Southern slavery or sex, but because I believe in being fair to people.
However it may be that I have the facts wrong or incomplete, in which case I welcome comment. Koyla, Are you familiar with Kinism? Read up on it. Wilson was definitely on the fringes of it with his views on slavery and a theocracy of sorts. Listen, these guys would LOVE a state church. They will deny it but just read them for a long time and you will see it. Amazing how that works. Apparently if you use the word Gospel enough, and create lots of hyphenated words with it, it proves something.
This militates against marriages across cultures and across races where there is no common culture or association possible. The new unit is a continuation of the old unit but an independent one; and there has to be a unity or else it is not a marriage.
Thus, the attempt of many today to say there is nothing in the Bible against mixed marriages whether religiously or culturally is altogether unfounded. Although the white man may reject this faith and subject himself instead to the requirements of humanism, he is still a product of this Christian past.
The Negro is a product of a radically different past, and his heredity has been governed by radically different considerations. I want to see these quotes side by side with ones from KKK leaders. Now THAT could be an illuminating exercise. Hi Anon1, thanks for your comment. Yes, I do remember reading about kinism at about that time. The sad thing is that it is in danger of undermining the glorious word itself, which would be truly tragic.
But I do hope he will do some research about Wilson. We are all to be looking at fruit. We can even talk about it. My headship said so. Some of the kinists their names escape me consider Wilson an apostate to their cause and seem to reserve a lot of vitriol for him. I certainly have no incentive to agree with kinists seeing an inter-racial marriage is how I got here.
He posted on Taylors blog asking people to visit his blog? I guess he only wants people who agree with him. That, of course, if the gospel way. That means us, of course. I guess we are now the Voldemort of blogs the blog whose name must not be mentioned. This is a lesson in Calvinista language. If one does not agree with someone on a stand, that makes them anti-whatever. This is how authoritarian churches and those who love them handle things. If one disagrees with the pastor on an issue, one is now anti-pastor.
That means one is anti-gospel because the pastor is pro-gospel. The two of us will fight this silliness tooth and nail. I believe if we all stick together and work hard, we can make TWW the 1 anti-Wilson blog in the entire blogosphere!
It is dirty pool and we intend to continue to expose this. The case that threw out miscegenation as an offense of law and allowed inter-racial marriage was not based on the rights of a black American to choose to marry a white, but on the right of a white person to choose to marry a black person! It was decided at a time when blacks were believed to have fewer rights than whites. Sorry but if that is the best he can do in defending himself?
It certainly shows a lot of immaturity on his part. You would hope that more mature gentleman would show him how to deal with disagreements. The Calvinistas seem to have latched on to Wilson for his patriarchy. They love that hierarchial stuff and Wilson is an expert at it. It is surreal trying to talk to them.
It is like mass narcissism. They are like arrogant entitled petulant children who have no idea how they are perceived by others outside their bubble. It is a form of inbreeding. And they are entering churches in droves seeking authority over people. It is like there has been mass indoctrination. I have been reading them all week and it scares me to death.
Whoops- it appears our name is no longer veboten. Jared has officially welcomed readers of this blog to his. For the record, TGC, we have never asked people to go to your blogs and comment. However, our bloggers are thoughtful individuals who actually check out links instead of robotically nodding along with whatever is posted. Just answer the questions. And think of it this way, since you have been begging for readers, our good readers have given them to you.
Look at the number of comments! They praise each other, agree with each other, talk to each other, go to the same conferences, read the same books, etc. So they are not used to people disagreeing with them. It is actually very sad. They claim to be missional but they cannot communicate in a missional way. That quote by Wilson was ridiculous. Anyone in the real word understand that.
Just a few thoughts:. Said colleges are strongly Calvinist. At Moore you do 3 or 4 years of Greek, but Hebrew is downplayed. A certain in-group of older pastors now being copied by the younger ones go around everywhere with their Greek New Testaments, and are known to pull them out to read when the bible reading is given. As if you can understand Paul correctly if you take away the context of the rest of scripture! It implies some interesting parallels between the Holocaust and Civil Rights issues — prejudice is prejudice!
Sure looks like it to me! The same belief in paternalism seems to be there — so women are more childish than men, and need to be told what to do, and blacks are more childish than whites and need to be told what to do. So only the white male is fully adult and fully human? Lord have mercy on us all!! What would a nonbeliever think to read that quote? Jared is amazed that commentors are misinterpreting what Wilson wrote. If someone needs to read the whole book to understand the quote, then maybe it was not an appropriate quote to use to make a point a blog.
Nope, instead everyone reading it is just incapable of understanding what Wilson is saying. Jared was not very welcoming and came across like an arrogant man.
Maybe Jared only likes when everyone agrees with what he wrote and gives him a pat on the back? The more I read about what is going on in not just Reformed circles, but also Pentecostal and Charismatic circles they have their own brand of shepherding, and authoritarianism, including but far from limited to, the New Apostolic Reformation with C. A five-minute Google search revealed that said Reconstructionist also implied that non-tithers must be lost. In a comment on an earlier post I suggested reading Plessy v.
Ferguson the case that initially established the separate but equal doctrine which was destroyed in Brown v. Board of Education and switch every mention of race for gender and see how similar it sounds. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.
For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
How can we be unified in Christ with folks who hold views that violate basic human dignity but which they claim are biblical? God, have mercy on us all. Eagle — the KKK has historically been rabidly anti-semitic… even though there were Jewish officials in the Confederacy. As regards the links between slavery and the subjugation of women, Australian Kevin Giles wrote an excellent article.
I am reading an excellent book by Kevin Giles on the new eternal subordination of the son doctrine and its relation to the issue of gender. Thanks for sharing the article. Yes, Giles is writing some very good stuff. What a warped view of Christianity! To emulate the breathless tones of John Piper: Much has changed since but bottle stores are still closed on Sundays, even in the New SA! During the sermon, the minister, Clifford Storey, was critical of apartheid and government policies and the service was quickly taken off air.
Since then, all church services on the SABC were prerecorded for transmission at a later date. They ignore the teachings of the Savior in favor of the teachings of the apostle as they have misinterpreted and misunderstood them. They also dodge the most direct statement on gender, race, etc. May God have mercy on their souls and those of their followers.
They would never last outside the church. Not for a minute. It was a mandate given to both the man and the woman, and it did not involve dominion over other persons. Nowhere is the man commanded to take dominion over the woman. Lynne T, interesting what you say about the distance between males and females in SydAng — could you elaborate? A couple of ladies I know who visited certain countries where this was the cultural norm albeit in an extreme form said that they thought there was a lot more homosexual sex going on, albeit swept under the carpet, partly because the men could either not relate to or not have any meaningful friendship with women.
The doctrine of eternal subordination has also reared its head over here in the UK. To me it does look suspiciously like a halfway house to Arianism, if not the full-blown thing. Understand that the man I heard if from was born back in in the South so this would set him up to be prejudiced and privileged. This man had an encounter with God and became a missionary in and he ran strong with this until his death in In spite of the time and place he was born, he overcame prejudice and held all people as important and preached the gospel on all continents except Antarctica.
He was aware of the passage concerning Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth and did consider the reason Blacks were oppressed was because of that Curse. But here was his answer, and he taught this often in our Good Friday services. It was the Jews descendants of Shem who handed Jesus over to the Romans.
It was the Romans descendants of Japheth who carried out the crucifiction. Along with this, he taught this verse: He also used the verse that every valley will be lifted up and every mountain will be laid low to demolish any notion that any one should think more highly of themselves than they ought.
And so, in the world, the curses may still apply. But in church they have absolutely no place and those trying to make those curses apply are fighting against the Kingdom of Heaven.
But I am saying that I appreciate that he overcame his own prejudices and had a way to reconcile these things. Ways to reconcile them do exist in the Bible if people are willing to find them. The issue is that Doug Wilson is not interested in finding such things. He is only interested in making the Bible say what he wants it to say against Blacks and Women.
Out of the abundance of his darkened heart, his mouth speaks. Doug Wilson needs to find the Light of Jesus and actually walk in it and to quit muddying up the waters with the darkness in his own heart. You see, there is no possibility that he was wrong to use that asinine comment which he knew, deep down, was inflammatory. Piper was trying to be cutesy but he cannot pull it off.
Piper is totally opposed to Bell and a civil conversation is often not possible with idealogues. I learned something very important about Paul from my current definitely not a Calvinist pastor. He said people often focus on Paul in a minute wasy without realizing that Paul had a very big agenda that is very helpful for us to understand Jesus.
Paul rarely, if ever, mentioned the miracles of Jesus. His focus was on the Cross, forgiveness of sins and radical grace. But, boy oh boy, is it ever their intent. Jared should post it. Also, do not be dismayed about being in moderation. It usually means you have touched something and it is awkward. I think your comment might have done that. When I work up enough courage, I am going to wade into the homosexual wars. Not to be dismayed. They told him to marry a young woman and went on the band wagon to get them together.
The marriage took place, the woman was not told although the pastors knew and encouraged the marriage. The dvorce was rather quick, under 2 years, if I remember correctly. And they do not apply three things about Paul that are known: First, he was writing to specific church communities in response to letters or messages from them or perhaps rumors or gossip? Second, Paul may appear to contradict himself.
One reason may be that Paul is arguing from something they said, showing it leads to a ridiculous conclusion, and then teaching his position. An example of both the first and the second is head covering.
However, he was writing to a culture where a woman without a head covering and long hair, was considered a prostitute and so could bring disrepute on the faith. So in that culture, it was important for women to have their head covered. But he also says that a woman should decide that on her own authority. Third, we know Paul was trained as a lawyer and used a type of argumentation that lawyers even today use — putting up a straw man, shooting it down and then presenting his side.
In Romans, he sets forth one straw argument, shoots it down with yet another straw argument, then gives his analysis. This argument is often studied by Christian law students and there is more than one book that explains it. So proof-texting from the straw argument can result in faulty theology!!! It is much safer and easier to study the statements of Jesus in the Gospels, from which one can readily extrapolate a truly Gospel faith, and then assess and analyze Acts, the Epistles and Revelation from the perspective of that Gospel faith.
Then really dig in and make understanding and interpretation of the non-Gospel books fit with what one gleans from the Gospel. To do otherwise is to deny the freedom we have as a result of the gift of Grace we have received from our Savior. Lynne T Thanks again for the Giles article link 1: I so agree with you on reading the four gospels and interpreting the letters through the words of Jesus.
It is rarely done in the Calvinista world. On a first read it seems hypocritical and one thinks Paul is just nuts. Paul was also the man who wrote 1 Cor. It is the same reason I would completely change my dress and interaction with men and women if I felt called to go live in a Muslim country to share the Good News.
Many seem to be busy building their own little recreation parks. I pray that the eyes of their hearts will be opened. She was being submissive and letting him lead. He finally admitted that he was homosexual and had no desire to have children.
She was devestated, had no idea she had married a homosexual, and had given years to the man. It was not a good thing. After extensive head scratching over 1 Cor.
Let them decide for themselves, we have no custom about this. About the Ham thing, here is the racial argument as I heard it. That gives us a clue that Adam could blush, or be reddish. Blacks cannot be seen to blush, so Adam was white. Ham was cursed with a mark. That mark had to be a skin color. I can think of at least 5 logical arguments and more than one spiritual one against this, but it is probably superfluous. If you want to know what Southern advocates of slavery thought about race pre, this is your man.
That is, a class requiring but a low order of intellect and but little skill. Its requisites are vigor, docility, fidelity. Such a class you must have, or you would not have that other class which leads progress, civilization, and refinement. It constitutes the very mud-sill of society and of political government; and you might as well attempt to build a house in the air, as to build either the one or the other, except on this mud-sill.
Fortunately for the South, she found a race adapted to that purpose to her hand. A race inferior to her own, but eminently qualified in temper, in vigor, in docility, in capacity to stand the climate, to answer all her purposes. We use them for our purpose, and call them slaves….
We do not think that whites should be slaves either by law or necessity. Our slaves are black, of another and inferior race. The status in which we have placed them is an elevation. They are elevated from the condition in which God first created them, by being made our slaves. None of that race on the whole face of the globe can be compared with the slaves of the South. They are happy, content, unaspiring, and utterly incapable, from intellectual weakness, ever to give us any trouble by their aspirations.
Read the complete review at http: Re an earlier comment about the white man and his Christian heritage, he may have a heritage now, but there was a time when he had none — Jesus and the original twelve apostles were all Jews.
If however they mean the heritage of what is popularly called Christendom, then all I can say is that although it contained much good, there was also enough bad in it to spark off the Reformation, whose heirs these men also claim to be. Also Christendom was based in part upon mass conversions made by the decision of a ruler or at the point of a sword, and in some parts of the world eg Germany, the Baltic nations such conversions could be and were reversed by a subsequent political decision or mass revolt, showing their true depth.
BTW, I have a cousin by that name, the youngest of a bunch with the initial R, from the land of tall pines and pink tomatoes. My challenge to you is to read through Romans with that in mind and see if you do not see it. There are some intermediate verses, but I think you will find it if you look. I will try to find my copy of the book and give you the citation for it, but it may still be packed from our last move, the third since law school. Jared did not care for a portion of my comment EDIT but I do hope he will take the time to research for himself what I wrote to him.
Jared read the book. He had the grand view. Bad quote to place by itself with little to no commentary. I do not know Doug. I will never meet him. What am I supposed to do? This is what I think, too. And we need smart men like Wilson and Calvin to lead us. Some translations have quotations marks around a question here and there question Paul is answering.
Problem is, he is answering a lot of questions! Which is why chpter 14 is so confusing compared to chapter Since there is no punctuation in Greek, the translators added based on their opinion. So how can they prophesy in chp 11 but not allowed to speak in chp 14? The following should be quoted in chapter Reading a letter, or Epistle, that is not addressed to you and may have been preceded by other letters or personal contact, is like listening to one side of a telephone conversation and thinking you know EXACTLY what the conversation is about.
Add 2, years of time, language changes, culture, and translation i. We best be asking for the help of the Holy Spirit or else we are bound for a repeat of what Jesus came to set us free from.
It is amazing that people still want to read the scripture like a legal rule book. And one reason why we must encourage people to read Jesus in the Gospels deeply so they can understand Paul! I noticed a few of the comments mention the Dutch calvinists, the mark, etc.
In fact, their views are what influenced apartheid. After reading the initial prayer request and the subsequent press release, I decided there was no longer any point in trying to parody VF, because they have reached a level in which everything they do and say is already a kind of self-parodying performance art.
This is part of the problem. Jared and Doug, among many others, want us to know them via quotes and books and high fives from their friends. When you read a book you are getting an interpretation by the author, or quotes from other men of what something means.
People need to be discipled and taught how to view scripture and how to study it — not be taught specifically what they should believe about it. The Holy Spirit can do a very good job of revealing truth to us and it has a much greater impact when God has worked it into your being. You can read their arguments and judge for yourselves who was handling Scripture more soundly.
An excellent article on this controversy can be found here: It is a copout and anti intellectual. It is both incredibly arrogant Piper has the hidden knowledge—trust in him and dangerous no need to worry our little heads about whether Wilson has the gospel or not—Piper knows that for us.
I hope people take the time to slow down and think about what these professing Christian so called leaders are actually saying. That is what I am trying to do. A phrase like- you gotta know him -sounds so benign and funny; people laughed…but what is he saying?
One cannot understand Wilson fully because one does not know him. Bridget this is exactly what they fear. Think about it, as you mature spiritually you need them less.
It is all about controlling people. They want you feasting on their milk. As more and more people realize this, the more the institutional church built by man for man is going to have problems and become even more controlling. And after all the ha, ha and comments from Piper, Piper then asks people to trust Wilson i. Not much logic going on there. Able to teach does not necessarily mean brilliance, and ambiguous is plain dangerous.
But many in the Calvinista crowd are easily impressed by much learning. Wilson, and his fellow apologists, make a giant assumption where slavery is concerned. The mistake that Wilson and others make, however, is in assuming that the practice of slavery found in Scripture is identical with the practice of slavery as found in the South.
Girardeau as theologians, this was their fatal flaw as well. His views of covenant, baptism, election, and the distinction between law and gospel all fly in the face of Scripture! To be perfectly honest, Dr. I am concerned that Piper has made some judgments recently that cause me to ponder his thought processes. Perhaps it is time for him to retire. I believe those who call themselves Christians, of any stripe, need a revelation to experience GRACE to get rid of all prejudices of any kind.
But the question is when do they get this mind? Piper, because of the influence of his mentor Dr. Daniel Fuller, The Unity of the Bible: Norman Shepherd, The Call of Grace: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishers, ]. No racial prejudice Greek v. Jew , no slavery, no gender bias, for the Christian. David Barton is a fraud. You might look it up. Kolya, in Australia, men and women mix together in the everyday workforce, just like they do in every Western country, I would imagine.
They probably socialise together a little less, at least in the older generation — a cultural hangover from the mateship ethos of convict days. But in general, women were treated as reasonably valuable in society — Australia and New Zealand were the first 2 countries in the world to give women the vote.
But something odd happens when you step into a conservative Calvinist complementarian church at least in my experience Suddenly, you look around at morning tea, and realise that women are talking to women and men are talking to men. The only exceptions may be where 2 married couples are standing together talking.
And I do feel that this dislocation between men and women feeds into the porn culture, because normal healthy friendships teach you to see the opposite gender as whole people, not reduce them to a set of objectified body parts. The issue of slavery was a hot topic even in the drafting of the Constitution. This was the compromise they achieved. Thing is, when rolled around, the South just flat refused….
How many heard that in their history classes? Slavery was an issue from the very beginning in this country. Slavery was an intermittent hot topic for the best part of nearly two thousand years. The Church in the ancient world sought to reduce it from my reading of that period of history , but it reared its ugly head again later and at the beginning of the modern period about 16th C?
Hi Lynne T, thanks for your remarks on the subject of gender relationships. Over the past 15 years I have noticed a similar phenomenon creeping in. Kolya — Unfortunately the early church did not try to reduce slavery, in fact a good chunk of the church supported it. Very sad, but true. It was not a hot topic until close to the time of civil war. Thankfully some parts of Christianity got its head straight and supported the north and the effort to end slavery.
Another topic I wonder about — if 1 Cor 11 is a collection of quotes from people whom Paul do not say he agrees with, should that influence how much weight: From my limited reading of Black and Tan google books is a wonderful thing , he talks a lot about the trans-Atlantic slave trade while essentially ignoring the inter-American slave trade. The trans-Atlantic trade had been made largely irrelevant by the time it was banned because of the native population of slaves, if I remember correctly.
Retha, You reminded me that some of my traceable ancestors were New England Puritans around years back. Under the donation, the school was required to accept both Negros and Indians without prejudice, a great exception for the time.
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