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Unfortunately, little has changed. Catchy stuff, and some nice innovations, but it still doesn't move me. Three good indie-label bands don't justify an entire group any more than three bad ones condemn it. I just stated what I see in the DC5. Do you think your opinion should be taken over absolutely anyone else's? You must be looking in the wrong places. That site can be pretty condescending at times, but they tend to get the scores right.

I think I agree with Phillip a bit on this. As for mainstream there is music I like and some that I don't. As for the influence part I look at it this way Posted by dano on Saturday, Meanwhile, the acts you suggest Just a friendly suggestion. If it's selling, the record labels will want to get in on some the action and scout for more rock acts. We often call them wannabes and knockoffs, but they ARE rock acts nonetheless. When more rock acts are getting record deals, they keep putting out more rock music.

More rock music being put out Also, and a shorter route, if it's popular, that gives incentive to that band to keep putting out that kind of music, thus helping to perpetuate rock 'n' roll.

And of those that do form bands It's just a funnel with a very narrow point of exit. Also, just because a musician likes an artist, you won't always be able to discern influence from the sound of their band. But every band that makes it big Wether they sound like them or not.

And even if a band doesn't make it big but is still around playing.. I know one guy who works in the industry who says he just doesn't take Billy Joel seriously whenever Joel speaks because he just wears his influences on his sleeve. But I think people look more to the music to see where the influences can actually be found.

The proof should be in the pudding. As for those who don't make it big Nice to read a chap who thinks more along my line of thought Philip. Posted by shawn on Saturday, Wouldn't that make the something else the actual important thing? Posted by William on Saturday, What's your idea of "small potatoes" bands?

It it , units? I don't think anyone said that every no-name garage band should be taken into account. In fact I think I've said just the opposite on more than one occasion. On the whole, though, there's a lot of middle ground between garage acts self-releasing albums burnt on Office Depot blank discs and mega-successful arena acts. You don't have to go triple-platinum to carve out a successful career in music. Yo La Tengo's been kicking around for 24 years and 13 albums.

I'd call them successful, but I wouldn't say they "made it big," because that's inherently limiting. Lots of has-beens "made it big. There's thousands of them, but out of those thousands, at least a few with something original tend to be found by adventurous souls who then say to themselves "Wow, I've never heard anything like this before.

So if you can be successful without being huge, be influential and innovative with doing either, and make it big without being anything, in what was does success measure importance?

Well, first I feel I must disappoint Shawn a little. I would put Bon Jovi in. Hair metal WAS the dominant face of rock 'n' roll before Nirvana came and laid waste to anything that stood in its path just generalizing the timeline here.

And I feel it should be acknowledged. I know, I know, gag and curse all you want. It's a genetic thing amongst us true Midwesterners. We loves us some hair metal So yeah, I meant them Still kinda new, so I'm just trying to feel everyone out here.

Give me time and I won't have to be uber-literal anymore. I was basically adressing every band out there. But the ones that get most of the airplay or tour a lot I would say influence other "to be" bands. I am a hair metal fan by far but I do enjoy other music but I don't think I have the same taste as William does.

Philip, I forgive you your sin of bad taste by loving Bon Jovi and hair metal. You and Dameon shall be fast friends now, esp if your love of spande rock includes his fav whipping boys, Def Lepard. You and I still share a core philosophy that there are more doors into a rock hall than those with Innovation or Influence nameplates. Wiiliam, to answer your question again but this time in another stubborn form Philip put it perfectly in his Emblematic of this approach would probably be the case for the Doobie Brothers, whom I believe belong in the Hall.

I have no idea - I have not found nor assembled a litany how many, btw, would not elicit a scoff of "Is that all ya got? But their claim to the Hall lies in their simple Impact on the development and perpetuation of rock music because of their popularity, airplay, sales and ubiquity for about a 10 year period from I could list their numbers and all their great hit singles, but you'll just tell me that has nothing to do with I or I yea, and so what?

Here's my stance on artists that charted and sold like the Doobies did,in that time, - before the crap of the 00's, they made an IMPACT and did perpetuate rock - they must then be given the SUCK test - as in, did they?

If they sucked by general consensus, they are probably right out. There are very few eceptions to this law - those acts that sucked but trump that with unfortunate sheer force of presence.

Note that in no way does this detract from the merits and cases for the Replacements, Brian Enos and Nick Drakes of the rock wilderness. They stand true and tall by much different measure. Just remember, though, if you take a trip to the Midwest better have a Poison CD handy as camouflage.

That's something else the DC5 and the Doobies at least in their earlier stuff had. Which does bring us to the question of defining it I like to think of it in the same way a Supreme Court justice once described something else: Posted by Philip on Sunday, If being rock and roll was actually criteria you couldn't make any inductions past You either take the name totally literally or not at all. I'll say it again: I think "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" was a stupid choice for a name and only chosen as tourist bait.

Posted by Liam on Sunday, As far as influence goes, hair-metal is expendable, and as for innovation, well, I won't even go there parce qu'il n'y a rien. Exactly what is the 'impact' supposed to be on?

Because in all honestly, this justs sounds like some lame excuse at getting the fav'rites in the Hall. There's an ocean of possibility between those two ends Chiefly because it's the most tangible and measurable standard. Not always the best, but oh well. And I'm referring to Impact on popular culture, how many ears are being reached, because rock'n'roll was and is primarily a form of pop culture, and it's not a term of shame. Your thinking of rock specifically, but 'rock' and 'rock and roll' are not synonymous.

Pretty much no artists post '72 can be consiidered rock and roll. Rock and roll in itself isn't around anymore, and rock isn't primarily a form of pop culture now. Well, we could argue until eternity and not agree on the definition of rock 'n' roll. I like what Billy Joel said As to the only other points: You can perpetuate it by continuing to play the music of the 50's and 60's, just as you can perpetuate a story by the continued retelling of it. The point is to keep it in the hearts and minds of listeners, which can be done through innovation of new sounds, influencing others to become musicians, or through continuing in your own successful style.

If you're referring to pop vs. I simply mean rock was and is primarily form of entertainment, which is the foundation of what constitutes "pop culture.

As a musician, you're being influenced by whatever '60s act you care to play the music of, and therefore it's said '60s act that is doing the perpetuating. If you were to influence other musicians, then yes, you yourself would be perpetuating rock. My Bloody Valentine, Brian Eno, The Velvet Underground and thousands of others didn't and don't make music primarily as a form of entertainment. I simply disagree with how you define it. What matters is how the end user is using it. They may be creating rock music for the purpose of creating art, but as long as people are using for entertainment, it's entertainment.

Even if their idea of entertainment is stimulation through indulgence in the arts. And no artist can escape it. To be frank, "entertainment" isn't what the Hall should be looking at, because it isn't measurable. Rock and pop were initially made as forms of entertainment, and not taken seriously by critics. It has since become an actual form of art. Whether you, me or the next guy "enjoys" this doesn't actually make a blind bit of difference.

Of course, not everyone actually makes artwork, else we wouldn't have to endure sub-mediocre tripe like Bon Jovi or Def Leppard. That's how Billboard, Arbitron, Nielsen, etc. You may not be able to measure the amount of joy and pleasure you give people, but that's another matter. And entertainment should matter because being entertaining is one way that something gets heard enough times to influence others. Hearing it once and making an impact is possible, but not likely.

That's not to say something can't be art AND entertainment. There's plenty of evidence to prove that it can, but when you rule out the entertainment value, you pretty much make it a convention for performance art types of music. Would you put Yoko Ono in the Hall? Because that's where the "art is the ultimate end-all be-all" argument leads. You need to acknowledge art AND entertainment in healthy proportions to get the artists that we hail as worthy of induction into the Hall.

The two pieces need each other. Never heard of the Rallying To The Winner effect? What about Metallica's St. That went 1, and yet pretty much everyone I know told me it sucked. I'd be surprised if yu could scrape more than 10 artists influenced by Bon Jovi, and they are popular. If you want to measure influence, measure it directly. Don't be lazy by letting sales be an indication.

I'm choking on all this sarcasm! You could make a case for the other two, especially Ono. Why do we have to acknowledge "entertainment" you mean sales? I mean, assuming you do mean sales, there's already an organisation that recognizes it: And supposing that you do mean entertainment, how do we measure that?

I've already shown how sales can't show what is entertaining, but why should the opinions of one million idiots be taken over that of fifty well-informed music lovers?

The problem with the Rock And Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony is that it has become a TV show with time constraints and performances. They should go back to just inducting artists and giving induction speeches, with no performances except for the all-star jam at the end, like they used to do the late 80s. They inducted a lot more artists per year back then: Each band is counted as 1.

Without them, nothing else would have happened! Posted by Roy on Sunday, Posted by joker on Sunday, Now this is what I call a good conversation.

Philip and Shawn - thank you for many of the points you made. I don't see how pure innovation and direct influence can be the only benchmarks for the HoF. I still think perpetuate is the key word and you don't have to be either to do this. Shawn - you got to let D. Yes, I believe Lep deserves consideration for all the reasons I have mentioned in the past, but that is not a vote from me of the whole 80's scene. Yes, I enjoyed the music. It was fun, especially in the clubs, but I only think a handful of those bands deserve any consideration Queensryche comes to mind and IMO, there are a lot of bands who came before that which I would like to see inducted first Purple, Cheap Trick, K.

Liam - serious question for you. Don't you think that all RnR bands are underground up to the point where someone makes their music accessible to some sort of listening outlet radio, internet, etc. Joker - Mott the Hoople - why not! Great band, but i doubt it. Posted by Dameon on Sunday, I think "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame" was a stupid choice for a name But I Contemporary or Modern just sound to me whatthey are: I think people need to justexpand their perceptions of Rock and take off the blinders, open up a bit.

Posted by shawn on Sunday, Where is the danger you see in opening up to more than this rigid, scholarly insistence on scientific documentation of Innovation or Influence by a peer reviewed medical journal. Which, by the way, I will submit yet again, can be subjective itself; accurate possibly, yes, but nonetheless subjective. After justnow reading through the entirety of Liam's and Philip's volley, the great divide is now very clear, and why we shall go no furher without some kind of a bridge: But for Liam, Impact on other musicians is the only respectable and relevant measure.

I understand and respect his viewpoint, but disagree wholeheartedly and think him a bit nuts. Were we to embrace his approach, the Hall would quickly become a self-absorbed pedantic study of "Art". Sorry Liam, but I find it comically absurd to treat popularity as irrelevant, even treat it rudely as the white trash component of a naturally popular medium and to try to "legitimize" rock only if we see it as art, only consider what other musicians think.

What a self-involved load of hooey that would be ultimately just collapse in on itself under the weight of all that grandiose. I'm yet to hear a convincing argument from either of you about it.

Pretty much the entirety of this thread has consisted of "It is so because it is," without explaining any of how it works. Well, I can't see anything within the 'Labels Encouragement' crap, because even if the label didn't pick the group up, the group would still be making the music.

How should a bands label status affect the music their making? You need to explain how sales on their own have impact, because you haven't already. Explain exactly how The Doobie Brothers impacted rock without innovating or influencing. How do sales affect anything other than sales ignoring the very minor connection between that and influence. How do you propose we finance this? By forbidding the dumb public from entering??

I know, we could have the inductees pitch in with the chores to save some money. We'll have Johnny Rotten be the greeter, the surviving members of the Grateful Dead pass out refreshments of brownies and Kool-Aid, dress up Debbie Harry in a maid's outfit to dust off the trophies, assign the Police to security detail, put Steve Tyler on the snow blower and let Paul McCartney fix holes on the roof when the rain gets in.

I think you're underestimating the size of Pitchfork's reader base, joker. There are more people giving a crap about influence and innovation than you realise. Whether there is enough to keep the Hall afloat is anyone's guess, although I wouldn't be surprised if there was.

Liam, you're saying that innovation and influence are mutually exclusive from sales, right? So how do you explain that a large proportion of the top sellers of all time are in the Hall of Fame? Just a crazy coincidence? If the Hall has it wrong, then who among the top sellers are you kicking out? And don't try to turn this around by saying that I'm advocating sales as a prerequisite for induction. All I'm saying is that there is something going on when there is that much of a relationship between the most influential artists and the biggest sellers.

Again, this is not true for ALL artists like VU of course , but it's definitely true for a whole bunch of them. Posted by mel on Sunday, Ok, kind of a touch-and-go response trying to reply to as much as I can with as few words as possible, so if I omit some seemingly small point that means the world to you, sorry and tough. Pretty much the entirety of this thread has consisted of 'It is so because it is,' without explaining any of how it works.

If it sells, it's a bandwagon that other companies will jump on to cash in on. In a way it still affects us and influences us today. Some of those other bands that had been around before Nirvana broke big finally broke big themselves because the labels wanted to sell what they were offering.

And even if you call it a "very minor connection", as you parenthetically did, you can't just wave it off, because it's there. Because clearly those are bad things to have. Claiming "unwashed masses" is usually just another way of saying "I have personality issues that forbid me from exercising even the most basic form of respect for my fellow man if they don't agree with me about this. I could get all pretentious and snotty because I absolutely loathe not just 00's mainstream music, but also what "American Idol" has done to both TV and radio.

There are things I like that aren't exactly haute couture. Instead, I choose to just get myself together and join the human race.

Now, I'm not saying they have as much credibility as other musicians, or producers, insiders, historians, but that doesn't make them idiots. As for Ono, I like her, but wouldn't put her in. Her only influence that you can call hers is with other performance and avant-garde artistes, and that just doesn't extend very widely.

Her current popularity is due more to the talent of electronica producers and remixers. On a positive note, though, I am taking your advice and trying some of the stuff you recommended. Autolux didn't agree with me I don't mean this as a derogatory statement Same for you Shawn. Liam - as much as I respect your opinion as to why innovation and influence are the King and Queens of benchmarking, it is just not possible for this subject to be so black and white.

If we feel that Rock is as much an art form as anything else, then we have to appreciate the fact that art is usually liked or disliked.

Sales leads to accessibility and accessibility leads to possible influence. I think you are correct when stating that a lot of people are looking for bands that have something new to give us. But I think that people are looking more for something that they enjoy. If that something is also new and influential, then great.

But if it is nothing more than a reinvention of something done 20 years earlier with maybe a slight new twist, then that can be just as important in perpetuating the continued success and growth of the art form. I have waited 5 months to see this conversation and I thank you all.

C'mon - are you being intentionally obtuse now? If this difference in our paradigms has been distilled down now and diagnosed as simply the difference in how we define perpetuate and how you are willing to define it a musician context only then let's get some clarity and move onto another phase of this conversation.

But how long will we keep coming back to this same loop of questions from you? Philip has explained how our reasoning works in at least 3 different ways that I just went back and saw and I have a couple times now. Fear not that duty. Financial success not only prompts them perpetuates to continue creating this rock music but allows them to do so. I too, like Mel am perplexed at your belief that ackowledging that rock is an amalgam of art and entertainment is devil talk - why are tey so damn mutually exclusive to you?

You are setting up a false dichotomy which we will reject over and over; from whence comes this fevered quest to preserve the homor of your fair maiden Art? Rex voters choose 2 of these 6 Total of 8 inductees. Posted by shawn on Monday, In the '50s and '60s, before rock became an artform, artists could rely less on substance and more on publicity to be influential eg The Monkees.

There is absolutely no correlation between innovation and sales whatsoever. None of whom's influential work was "best-selling. Oh wait, there all anomalies, right? Posted by Liam on Monday, I'm not completely dismissing that there are a certain few artists whose influence was aided by huge commercial success, but how many artists got in the same position as Nirvana?

All it shows is that your CHANCES of having followers will increase, but you haven't given a concrete rule that the followers will be there. With that, you're forced to assume that the followers are there. Why not make it easy on yourself and actually find out who actually followed the artist? You cannot assume that any proportion of the consumers are musicians. But, more importantly, even if an artist IS cloned due to large sales, what about the clones that undoubtedly make it big?

For every one Pearl Jam there are around thirty Nickelbacks that enter the mainstream and often stay there. How do you deal with them, without bringing your own opinion of the music into it? Yes, many do, but it's not everyone's priority. You enjoy a band. Lots of people enjoy that band. But exactly why they should be put into a museum is something baffling. This is supposed to be a HoF that includes the artists that "perpetuate rock and roll.

Also, you won't be around forever. You can't "prove" that something is 'bad. You can't just lump extra criteria like your opinion onto sales, otherwise, what's the point? You either take sales on their own or you don't ake them at all. And since there are already plenty of organisations that recognise sales, I'd go for the latter. Can you list them please? Because by your logic, there are loads of them to choose from. There should at least be as many that have sold over 10 million albums.

Posted by mel on Monday, Liam, you act like museums are places which are put together by robots documenting history. You don't think there are curators in an art museum? You don't think they apply some editorial control of what gets exhibited?

Why else do you keep asking for Pitchfork to take over the process other than the fact you think their taste is more closely aligned with your own? They wouldn't be any more "objective" than the current committee. They are just coming from a newer perspective.

You said "best-selling" artists, and NONE of them were that whn they were doing their influential works or at all, in most of the cases. I listed 34, each one managing to have masses of influence either without or before going mainstream. Why is 10, maximum "ridiculous"? You're saying sales have no relationship to influence, so there should be an even distribution of influencers across the sales spectrum.

If 10, is ridiculous, then what number isn't ridiculous? Or are is there a flaw in your logic? What makes bands like VU so special and many of the ones you listed , is that they were able to make an impact in spite of sales. They're the needle in the haystack and it's a large haystack. Let's look at your original post: The HoF has to sell tickets to keep itself running and make profits, and the most obvious way of doing that is by putting recognizable acts in there.

Who do you think the guy on the street would rather see when he makes his visit: Sonic Youth or The DC5? I do not care about a band's popularity at all when it comes to this. The Beatles are highly influential, they sold alot of records, therefore they deserve in. Sonic Youth are highly influential and innovative, they didn't sell anywhere near as many records, they deserve in.

Feel free to track down a backlog queue I made somewhere to see whether you agree with my picks. You could push it down to 30 mill. You're the one claiming that there is an even distribution of influencers across the sales spectrum.

So I'm asking you to prove that by naming some influencers who have sold less than 10, or 50, if you wish albums. I'm saying that to make an impact at that low of a sales threshold is nearly impossible, but it can happen if the planets are aligned just so.

This always comes back to what you are willing to include in your definition of Perpetuate, Liam. I find it myopic to the point of baffling. Influence between musicians is a pillar - YES - a solid touchstone indeed- we all acknowledge that as gospel and do not challenge it NOR are stating that it must be correlated to sales.

Your assertion that we have no basis to assume that any portion of consumers may also be musicians is simply contrary nonsense and flys in the face of common logic. That's what breaks my chain?

That's the nature of the beast. It may be indirect, but personal in philosophy nonetheless. Are there Hobbits and wee fairies playing the lute and harp for kind passer-bys in this land of the hippie troubador you describe? This all speaks to perpetuating. How many times have we seen you declare that sales and influence had nothing whatsoever to do with each other?

How can you be so stubborn? How can you really believe that perpetuating rock and roll can ONLY be evaluated in the myopic context of the fishbowl world between musicians?

They are not animals in a zoo whom we watch the mating habits of for study purposes It IS related, it ISrelevant. It IS a poular medium. It IS entertainment s well as art. Yea, yea it is, brother!!!!!!!!!! For the first time here Liam, you are exasperating me to the point of pissing me off. You're on record many times as saying "sales don't mean anything" -- mainly about bands you simply don't like. Now you can say that "sales increase your chances for being influential, but don't guarantee it.

They don't "increase your chances. It doesn't show a real cause and effect relationship, just a correlation. And yeah, a band with sales tends to be a band with decent marketing, thus more airplay, so unless they bring absolutely nothing new to the table, what they do bring will spread. Only rarely could a band with no original aspects gain a serious amount of followers, and this tends to happen by convincing the public that what they did was original even if it wasn't The Beatles, Hendrix, etc.

This is so rare it's barely worth mentioning, and is unlikely to ever happen again. If your idea of "perpetuating" rock is just keeping people listening to it, what the hell? Were they at risk of stopping? How many listeners do we need to maintain critical mass? Just because people bought Bon Jovi doesn't mean he "perpetuated" rock for those people. They might have bought something else, and even the worst case scenario, nothing, isn't bad.

I haven't bought a new album in a while, but I'm not somehow devoid of rock and waiting for someone to come along and "perpetuate" it for me. There's always something to listen to. More albums are released in a week than there is time in that week to listen to all of them. Nearly everyone "perpetuates" rock in that sense. It's never in danger of disappearing, but it is in constant danger of stagnation.

Posted by William on Monday, You cannot be influenced by an artist unless you have heard their music. Granted, with the increasing availability of music on the internet, younger musicians need not go buy a CD to hear something.

But 20 years ago, this was not the case. Bands showcased themselves in hopes that some label, major or independent would sign them and release their work.

They do it because they want the big payday, whatever that may be. Yes, there is always an exception to the rule. But in general, all bands want to achieve some level of success.

Liam - why do you keep lumping the Kinks into this? They achieved a large amount of commercial success. Posted by Dameon on Monday, But I accept your point about it not being a cause and effect relationship. I also don't think it's quite like ice cream sales and murder.

More like gun sales and murder rates. LIAM - "You're the one claiming that there is an even distribution of influencers across the sales spectrum. Sorry, Liam if that one went over your head ; I guess I need to use those stupid emoticons like everyone else. I stand by my point though. Sorry you don't understand. It's pretty clear you've painted yourself into a corner, so you try to change the subject. Oh, it's absolutely hilarious now you stuck the emoticon on the end.

Seriously, I'm gonna burst. As for these influencers selling less than 50, copies, you need to secify as of what period in their career, and how old the artist is. I'm pretty sure R. I'm still not totally sure why you're obsessing over specific sales margins anyway.

Well, there are plenty of influencers at the top end of the sales spectrum. You haven't produced any at the bottom, yet you maintain they are evenly distributed throughout. So the lowly sellers who with the massive influence are There are tens of thousands of bands who sold less than 10, albums. Why can't you name one that had lasting impact on rock? MBV and The Fall actually have had relatively successful sales wise careers.

Their influence far outpaced their sales record, that's a credit to them. And even bands that have a small following get the opportunity of 25 years for it to snowball before they're eligible, and it should be big enough to be measured by that point. How did MBV get exposure? Isn't Anything from before every critic and his dog was hailing Loveless got almost no recognition by the media, and yet it somehow managed to kickstart the whole shoe-gaze scene.

I have maintained that there is a strong correlation between sales and influence. Not a cause and effect relationship. And you really need to learn how to spell anomaly if you're going to keep using it. I said they distribute it. You can't always rely on sheer quality of music to do all the work.

It goes a long way, yes, but in addition to being art and entertainment, there's also the business side to it. That's why we induct record execs, promoters, etc. It could be argued that Bill Haley and Elvis are in the same position I'm not denying underground influence, but if underground influence begets ONLY more underground artists and more underground influence, imo, you're not doing a lot to help perpetuate rock'n'roll.

Which is easy to misunderstand Your argument seems to assume that the chances of followers are greater if they DON'T get wider distribution. Posted by Philip on Monday, Watch the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame go the healthy way for headlines and admission sales. Posted by David on Monday, They stand independant regardless of whether they effect one another hypothetically. You have no leverage to discard sales when it is condeded that influence blossoms forth from musician to musician, often irrelevant of common listener exposure.

Just because you personally didn't consume an artist's offerings doesn't mean THEY haven't contributed to the growth of the art. You can't possibly be that egocentric, right? As an ethical analogy, every good deed shines in the vastness of this weary world regardless of how many others are being simultaneously done. Popular music will always exist - the mainstream popular stuff sucks monkey ass currently - but hypothetically, those who are creating stuff worth listening to are indeed perpetuating rock.

Sales were much more relevant at that juncture in perpetuating rock than they are now, I would argue. Innovation and Influence fertilize another kind of crop - entirely necessary ones, just different. Bran Flakes was an imperfect analogy. If people didn't buy rock albums for a period, that does not mean that rock is "dead" or "asleep" or any of the other lame metaphors people use.

Just because people aren't buying albums does not mean they aren't listening to rock. You somehow read this to mean "Only what I buy matters" or something, which is not what I said at all.

I'm certainly not the ridiculous one here. The point of the argument was that this definition of "perpetuation" is meaningless. Literally every artist could be said to "perpetuate" rock via selling albums provided they sell even one pressing. But it doesn't mean anything in the long run. Remember A Taste of Honey?

Don't feel bad if you have to look them up. They set a record for most copies of a single sold and won a Grammy for Best New Artist over Elvis Costello, but they were also an instantly-forgettable pop disco group who showed up near the end of disco's long run in the spotlight and had nothing new to add to anything.

I can't think of even one group who cites them as an influence, and rightly so. They did not matter in the long run. William, the 25 year waiting period is there so that we can observe whether an artist's contributions o rock were significnt enough to merit induction consideration, or, as in your Taste of Honey example, only helped perpetuate for a moment. We can also judge whether they were throwaway crap or they just sucked. Case by case basis, y'know?

You have this obsessive preoccupation with ordered precepts. I would never have submitted Taste of Honey or Debbie Boone or Milli Vanilli as Hal worthy contributors, despite some high sales they may have garnered once. And by the way, when you say,"Just because people aren't buying albums does not mean they aren't listening to rock. Jesus that sounds so common sense when I think about it more - what the fukk are you positing anyway??? Jesus that is just stupid. Posted by shawn on Tuesday, I think if only 5 artists get inducted yearly.

Posted by David on Tuesday, You know what I find to be really convenient of the sales case, though? The fact that it allows you lot to induct artists that just happen to be your favourites, artists who would otherwise not warrant induction.

You just want a nice big personal gallery to keep those waybackwhen bands alive. Posted by Liam on Tuesday, I don't think anyone has mentioned the quality of the music yet as criteria for induction.

Personally, I don't have a problem with inducting artists who put together an outstanding catalog of songs and albums, regardless of their influence or innovation. These artists are not a dime a dozen. It's relatively rare to have a long career that consistently put out great music.

And yes, this does allow for subjective taste to determine induction. Sure, it won't be perfect, but there's enough of a critical consensus around certain artists that it can be pretty accurate. Posted by mel on Tuesday, Good point Mel - but you are going to get some negative feedback from a few here. Both bands have consistently put out excellent music for decades. They may be slowing down now, but it certainly doesn't diminish what they have done over the last 25 years. I guess the question is, "who defines quality"?

Can you actually do a qualitative analysis on music? Posted by Dameon on Tuesday, Let's see what specific artists we would be fighting over in our pretend ballot barfight. I would put Alice Cooper, Chicago, Steve Miller Band and Doobie Brothers on a ballot, primarily by virtue of my Impact perspective; would you scoff at these or go along?

The battle rests in your NO not ours. This is fine, and I point it out not to plead some kind of equitable trade nonsense - one has to stick to their principles but let's be clear where the contention lies. I would not support many of your Brit-pop or fukking shoegaze heroes.

I would also be more cautious than you about heaping the love on your pantheon of post-punk idols. So for example, if we had one slot left: Joe Cocker over The Pixies? Chicago over Sonic Youth? Steve Miller Band over Cocteau Twins.

Doobie Brothers over The Buzzcocks? Genesis over The Replacements? I really don't know - if I was forced into a Sophie's Choice. These are all just hypotheticals designed to see where exactly how argument would manifest itself pragmatically. Unless this is more to do with personal preference. What a shocker that would be. There's no more than ten shoegaze bands that I can think of that deserve induction, BTW. Way to drop that bombshell all of a sudden.

Obviously the Cocteaus have truckloads more influence than Steve Miller Band. This is just seems like your opinion getting in the way of your judgement. The Buzzcocks had influence AND regular airplay and innovation, depending on how you look at pop punk's developement , so surely logic would suggest that they get in over the Doobies? And again, all I read is that you let your opinion get in the way.

Can you show me where it is definitively stated that The Cocteaus have truckloads more influence than the Steve Miller Band? The same for the Doobies and the Buzzcocks or any of the other examples? I am keeping my opinion out of this, but can you quantify your statements while rejecting Shawns? You did notice that Shawn clearly stated the following: What makes one better than the other? And if you say because the music of the Hair Bands sucked, then you are being subjective and it doesn't matter if the consesus of opinion agrees with you or not.

I don't see objectivity in your opinions. Cocteau Twins influenced the entirety of shoe-gaze bands and had a huge hand in the development of post-rock and dream-pop. It's "definitely stated" in your mind, assuming that you did your research. Unless you actually think SMB are more influential than The Cocteau Twins, in which case, I'll be happy to lob your credibility out the window for you. The Buzzcocks actually have more followers than that, but AMG limits those lists to twenty to avoid over-crowding.

Again, feel free to try to make a case of the Doobie Brothers being more influential than The Buzzcocks. It's your credibility, not mine. Those shoe-gaze bands deserve in for their influence and, in numerous cases, innovation. Bon Jovi et al. Do you need a clue-in as to what an "opinion" is and how subjectivity and objectivity differ from each other?

How exactly are American listeners the only ones that can be "impacted? Alla Pugacheva is massively popular in Russia, so how does her impact differ at all to the impact of SMB in the States? Uh, the Rock Hall is an American institution that recognizes artists that were significant to Americans.

The Nominating Committee isn't made up of an international panel, it's probably Americans with a couple of Canadians. Are you suggesting the Rock Hall should recognize Russian artists that have no significance in the US? That's not what it's about, even if the front door doesn't specifically say "American Rock and Roll Hall of Fame". Well then if that's the defensive stance you've resolved yourself to and that's all you're going to hear then I give up; we're done then, aren't we.

This is an American institute. I do not mean that only American acts BELONG its just that an American born institution is going to reflect that culture's circle of recognizables. But all that is a tangent - you keep hammering away at that Influence drum and I keep telling you telling you no matter how loud and oblivious you are to my point, there are pillars that don't require that rhythm.

Just ignoring me does not reenforce your view, y'know. Nothing within the Hall's disclaimer says "being significant to Americans" is a criteria. In fact, nothing about nationality is even given a mention. You failed to mention that artists had to be popular within the USA to fit into your little criteria. You can carry on lumping on criteria as we go along, but expect to be called up if and when you do.

Johnny Hallyday, "The French Elvis", has been considered by the nominating committee. Could anyone explain his significance for Americans? The reason you'd bypass The Buzzcocks and many other UK radio friendly groups is because you're not a big fan. You'll carry on with this charade with made-up-on-the-spot arguments like "they weren't pop in the USA," but I can see this is nothing more than a ruse to get your personal favourite acts in there.

I would be able to do it in the end naturally form what we all know, but it would take documentation and education. No penalties for that; it just is so. If I bring up Steve Miller band or Doobie Brothers, I get a roome full of nods and some disbelief that there is even a doubt or debate.

They'd say - hel yes! Same with the Doobies. Yes William, if people hypothetically stopped listening and buying and attending concerts and being entertained by rock, then yes it would hypothetically die. A very large population of musicians would stop playing and this zoological study of the behavior of The Musician would look like idiocy.

Now after that, we have to do the suck test, which I will state for the 3rd time I fear not. And perhaps the Hall will come to the day when they decide to give a nod shoe-gaze and dream-pop. But does it occur to you: Who the FUKK cares?? That's good enough for me to satisfy Perpetuation of the art.

Are the Buzzcocks a personal favorite of yours Liam? Why didn't I state the bit about it being American? Well, first of all, it's obvious. Find an inductee who didn't leave a mark on the US music scene. I didn't say you had to perform music either, but that's true as well. If you're unaware of a specific sub-genres importance or size, find out about it. And implying that the existance of the shoe-gaze, post-rock and dream-pop sub-genres is "trite and ridiculous" does more to damage your credibility than anything else.

How's about the musicians that played, play and I believe will play the music. Ever heard of Silver Apples? They had a sound that managed to anticipate krautrock thus electronica , experimental electronica and underground dance and indie rock with their eponymous debut, and yet they're still yet to garner anything more than a hardcore cult following to this day. Nothing in the Hall's disclaimer says anything like "they've gotta be influential to American musicians.

There's at least fifty artists who are eligible that I could make the influence and innovation case for. Should also be noted that Silver Apples did influence those genres aswell. Even though "anticipated" would suggest so, it is not definite. The Buzzcocks being a personal favourite really had nothing to do with my point. You know, the same US radio that his favourites just happened to hit it big on.

Look Liam, I know what the hell shoegazing was, so shove off with the "well if you aren't as enthralled as I am with artist A or genre Z then it must be because you are ignorant" tactic. That's just the evil twin of "well if I am not aware of it, then it must not be worth knowing". Wasn't "shoegazing" pretty much "dream-pop" like Cocteaus but much louder, with fuzzbox feedback and murky, hidden vocals? Don't forget etheral wave, space rock, psychedelic rock, noise pop, gothic rock, electronica, how about drone???

My point isn't that these subgenres existence is trite - it's that you can parse it all down into such anal retentive categories that now have a champion of each - like an empty job title - that it makes you look like a fool for screaming at me about how i can't appreciate their genius - that I am guilty of ignorance.

You can get to the point that you're being a geek if you claim a spot in a Hall for them all BASED ON pay attention now those over-compartmentalized titles. Personally - I don't see the great significance of a genre that was named because the bands basically had zero stage presence.

But then again, the hair scene was named after Aquanet Hairspray, so what do I know. Just scratch your head. Just scratch a cat. He took shelter under the tree. Hide the clothes under the house. Sing on my birthday. Sing my favorite song. He groped in the dark. Grope for the flashlight inside the house. He held on to me. Put your hand on the child's shoulder.

Hold on to each other's hands or you might fall. Frisk my pocket for some money. Frisk the pocket of the thief who was arrested. They are fellow thieves. Slaughter some chicken for the fiesta. Slaughter the cow now. Kausapin mo si Pedro tungkol sa balak mo. Talk with Pedro about your plans. He waved at me before he left.

His trousers got hooked on the nail. Be careful as you walk or your trousers might get hooked on the nail. Kumawit ang pantalon niya sa pako. His trousers were got hooked on the nail. Invite someone to go with you to to the market. Invite Juan to watch a movie. We scraped the coconut. Talk to the lonely child. Malamig sa labas, baka ka kiligin. It is cold outside, you might shiver. Carry a newspaper on the way to the office. Make the way narrow.

You make the way narrow. The rough cloth rubbed on his skin. Sharpen the kinife on the whetstone. He earned a lot at the company.

They want to see each other tonight. Collect some financial assistance for typhoon victims. Gather the dry leaves in the garden. Get yourself some bananas from the basket. Get the bananas from the basket. Huwag kang mangulangot sa harap ng ibang tao. You should not pick your nose before other people. Kumulog ng malakas kaninang umaga. It thundered loudly early this morning. Don't put the bird in the cage.

Imprison yourself in your room.

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